THE SUBSISTENCE HOOLIGAN FISHERY OF THE CHILKAT AND CHILKOOT RIVERS By Martha F. Betts Excerpted From Alaska Department of Fish and Game Technical Paper No. 213, March 1994
Two major sources of Tlingit knowledge about hooligan are oral tradition and empirical observation. According to Tlingit elders, there is considerable knowledge about hooligan contained in oral traditions told as stories. In 1990, to elucidate how oral tradition reflects empirical knowledge, Austin Hammond, Sr., told a story of Raven introducing the marine species to man. From incidents in the story, he drew conclusions about the seasonal movements of resources, and sequence of harvest activities. For example, king salmon migrates to inshore waters in the spring following herring, needlefish, and hooligan. Brown bears emerge from hibernation when seaweed ripens and when terrestrial plants bloom, and bumble bees become active. The knowledge transmitted in oral tradition reflects empirical observations, informally guiding observations and, in turn, validating the legends. Local knowledge about the hooligan runs seems to support some of the scientific findings discussed in the previous section, but not all. Local knowledge that is supportive of biologists' observations includes the general timing of migration, the relationship between the extent of migration upriver and the type of substrate, predominance of males in the early part of the run, and lack of redd construction. Local knowledge also supports a relationship between the effect of annual run strength and the extent of the upriver migration that stronger runs migrate to the full upriver extent of the spawning habitat, while weaker runs spawn closer to the mouth of the river. Local harvesters believe, however, that the hooligan spawn in shallow water along sand bars where gulls prey on them, rather than in the deep channels identified in the scientific literature.
Hooligan are understood by local residents to migrate annually from saltwater into the Chilkat and Chilkoot Rivers to spawn, arriving as a small run in February, and en masse most commonly in mid May. According to local respondents, color and markings differentiate Chilkat and Chilkoot stocks. Chilkat River hooligan are darker, with black back and blue sides; the Chilkoot stock is more silvery with spots. The Chilkat River stock arrives some days before a run appears at the Chilkoot River. Shoals of hooligan arrive at the heads of the inlets before moving into freshwater river channels. They arrive during the same season that seals pup, sea gulls lay eggs, and black seaweed ripens. The hooligan arrive just after the migrating needlefish or pinfish (Pacific sandlance, Ammodytes hexapterus) and directly precede the first migrating king salmon. Dolly Varden "trout" typically follow the hooligan upriver. The arrival of the hooligan runs are indicated by the presence of predators and scavengers such as killer whales, seals, sea lions, ducks, eagles and sea gulls in Chilkat Inlet in the vicinity of Pyramid Island near the mouth of the Chilkat River, and in Lutak Inlet near the mouth of the Chilkoot River. The hooligan shoals in the inlets are generally not harvested by local residents who confine harvesting to use of dip nets in river after the run has advanced.
Local harvesters observe the presence of the February hooligan run by watching gulls and eagles congregating on the lower river. They note that the beginning of the spring hooligan run usually corresponds with high tides in early May. Bishop et al. (1998) observed that the relatively early run in 1989 corresponded with high tides of 18-20 feet and noted that local fishermen had predicted that timing. In 1990, the hooligan arrived two weeks prior to the highest tides. Respondents' interpretation of what was considered to be an unusually early run was that it was simply an indication that the fish are influenced by various unknown ecological factors. The 1991 run moved up the Chilkat River some days prior to the highest tides of may, while the Chilkoot River stock began its migration as the high tides occurred. In addition, in the lower reaches of the rivers where the outflow is tidally influenced, the appearance of schools of fish coincided roughly with the tide stages. Following a high tide, hooligan were said to arrive in great numbers. One harvester related that he had dipped unproductively for three houses after the peak high tide when suddenly hooligan began to arrive, and he was able to fill a tarp-lined pickup bed in an hour or so. Several harvesters reported similar irregular patterns. The presence of hooligan in a given dipping spot was variable; schools of fish seemed to arrive in "waves."
According to local respondents, the initial part of the hooligan run consists of males, arriving ahead of females in order to prepare spawning grounds, clearing the gravel of sediments. The male hooligan or, according to some respondents, the needlefish, were referred to as the "cleanup committee." They were said to return down river, and upon meeting the female hooligan, tell them "your place is ready." Males were identified by their rough skin and generally larger size than the smoother, smaller females.
Respondents reported that hooligan migrate and spawn no further upstream than roughly 9-Mile, after which they "roll back" (kuxwuigwatl) to saltwater. Respondents also report that the spent hooligan do not die in the river, but migrate slowly back to sea. . . .
Fishermen made predictions about the strength of a season's run, in part, by noting the size of the individual fish. If the fish were large, the run would be strong and last longer. Small fish indicated a brief run. One respondent also noted that if the general run advanced as far as 6-Mile, then it would likely continue farther upriver to spawn. Such observations indicate, as the respondent noted, that run strength varied from year to year. . . .
Contemporary Harvest Methods
The subsistence hooligan fishery on the Chilkat River in 1990 and 1991 was primarily a dip net fishery conducted from shore. Fishing was accomplished by dipping a long-handled net close to the river bottom, moving it down steam slightly faster than the current, and lifting it quickly. Dip nets used during the study year had aluminum handles and hoops with a web of either cotton or nylon. Harvesters stood on shore or a few feet out from the bank and dipped in long sweeps from side to side beginning upstream. Alders that lined the banks had been cleared in places; in others, fishermen ducked beneath branches to approach dipping spots. Fishers stood still while dipping, pausing momentarily between dips to let the fish school up again. Fish were flipped from nets into five-gallon buckets, round washtubs on the bank, or into skiffs tied to shore. Occasionally, a second person helped to empty the net.
In addition to dip nets, some harvesters used a Hawaiian throw net. The throw net consisted of a circular net, weighted around the circumference. It was tossed into the river in such a manner that it opened and surrounded schooling hooligan. The net was hurled in with an attached cord, turned inside out, and picked or shaken. The throw net was regarded by some Tlingit fishers as an innovation lacking the status of a traditional gear type, and one which caused too much splashing and required too much handling.
Dipping was generally done in moderate current. Fishers wore knee-high rubberized boots, hip waders, or chest waders and stood a few feet out from shore going as deep as they could without losing footing. Fishers also had to be able to bring up the net through the current fast enough to prevent fish from escaping. In the turbid Chilkat River, fishers located productive concentrations by feel and intuition. With reference to schools of hooligan arriving in "waves," respondents reported that the fish would suddenly appear in a formerly empty spot, after which harvest might be productive for hours. The best spots were characterized by moderate current just below eddies; fishers commented that submerged boulders also tended to reveal schools of fish on their down stream sides.
Full buckets were emptied into washtubs, into 30-gallon rubberized garbage cans, or directly into pickup beds. The tubs and cans were loaded into cars or trucks and driven to a processing site to ferment the fish before rendering oil. Fishers emptied harvested hooligan into dugout pits or upright wooden bins. The pits were lined with lumber or plastic. The fish were left to ferment for 7 to 10 days, depending on weather. In 1991, the ground remained relatively cold in late May, and some processors left their fish fermenting a day or two longer than usual. Processors reported that they rendered greater quantities from well-decomposed fish; on the other hand, over fermenting would ruin the flavor of the oil. Fish not intended for oil rendering were set aside after harvesting for smoking, salting, or freezing. . . .
Harvest and processing of hooligan was a specialized undertaking, accomplished primarily by Tlingit family groups from Haines and Klukwan, and including relatives from Skagway, Angoon, and other regional communities. Participants were those who had acquired the necessary equipment and knew or were learning the techniques and skills of the fishery. Basically, harvesting required only the use of a dip net, boots (or waders). And time. Harvesters included age groups from teens to 80s; inexperienced dip netters worked alongside accomplished harvesters. Harvesting was predominately undertaken by men. Some people found that job commitments preempted or reduced their hooligan activities. In the earlier part ofthe century, this was also true, for example, some were not able to spend time in the hooligan fishery because they were preparing for commercial salmon fishing in April and May.
In 1991, researcher observations indicated that members from at lease 43 households participating in harvesting, including 21 households from Haines, 13 from Klukwan, 4 from Juneau, and 5 groups (households not delineated) of harvesters from Canada. . . .
A majority of harvesting households (31 of 43, or 72 percent) fished in order to obtain large quantities for rendering oil. Of the 34 local households, all but 5 were fishing to render oil; many oil producers were also planning to smoke or freeze part of their catch. Three of the four non-local harvesting households were fishing or processing with local relatives for oil production. The Canadian groups and one of the non-local households were fishing only to obtain fresh hooligan, not to render oil. Each of the Canadian groups harvested independently from local households, although at least two of them had established kinship relationships with a local user. At least three local households who were not fishing to render oil were planning to process their catch by smoking, expecting at later date to trade the smoked fish for hooligan oil and other wild resources, both locally and with residents of other communities.
Both harvesting and processing hooligan involved much cooperative effort among different households. Cooperative efforts took various forms, primarily involving either sharing equipment or contributions of the catch by numerous harvesters to single fermenting pits for oil rendering. There were 17 oil processing groups in 1991, to which 31 households contributed fish.1 The 17 groups shared 12 cooking sites and equipment. Others who gave hooligan to a processor also helped with rendering. Some harvesting groups consisted of extended families with more than one household contributing fish to the same pit and all working together to process the oil. Other extended family groups used the same processing vat, but kept their fish separate. They processed oil separately or with varying levels of mutual assistance.
USE OF HOOLIGAN OIL
Historically, hooligan oil was used primarily for eating with other foods, but also for preserving certain berries, roots, herbs, and salmon eggs. It was commonly mixed with fresh berries. It was also consumed at feasts (Niblack 1970; Oberg 1973; Stewart 1977).
In 1990 and 1991, processors dipped crackers, raw vegetables, dry fish, or meat into the fresh oil while it was still cooking in the vats. Pieces of hooligan meat were scooped up and eaten from cooking vats. One processing group served fresh hooligan oil accompanied by an array of other wild or fresh foods including smoked seal, smoked salmon, and raw fruits and vegetables. Throughout the year, the oil generally was eaten as a condiment with foods. It was added to boiled fish and meat, and spread or dipped with a variety of foods. Herring eggs, other fish eggs, boiled fish, and black seaweed were often eaten with hooligan oil. It was used for frying red sea ribbons in early summer. Year-old oil was whipped and mixed with cranberries, or cranberries and coho or sockeye salmon eggs. The aged oil was preferred, as it tended to whip more easily than freshly rendered oil.
Oil was also taken orally for such ailments as arthritis, tuberculosis, or cancer. Some people took a spoonful daily as a dietary supplement. Hooligan oil was notable for its high vitamin A content (over 4,000 IU per 100 grams). Smoked hooligan (Drury 1985; Hooper 1985) is also high in vitamin A (4,000 IU per 100 grams) as well as high in iron (12 mg per 100 grams) and fat (25 gm per 100 grams). In addition to edible or medicinal purposes, the oil also served other functions. Tradition maintains that it has value as a barometer, as an indicator of both weather changes, as well as social or personal events. For example, fishermen used to keep some oil in their boats; an increasingly milky appearance predicted stormy weather. A reddish cast to rendered oil would portend a family or personal disaster. Fish parts remaining after oil was processed were sometimes hauled away for use as garden fertilizer; more often, they were discarded into the river, where they were believed to contribute nutrients. . . .
Other Methods of Hooligan Preparation
In addition to its use as a source of oil, hooligan were welcomed as a source of fresh food in springtime. Contemporary users boiled, baked, or fried fresh hooligan. Historically, hooligan were dried on racks alongside rendering vats (Hakkinen 1979; Stewart 1977). Photographs of hooligan drying racks on the Nass River in 1984 appear similar in size to the extensive Yup'ik herring racks of Yukon Delta communities (Pete 1984). In 1990 and 1991, some families also smoked and dried hooligan within their salmon smokehouses. Some hooligan was smoked immediately, while others were frozen and later thawed for smoking along with the sockeye harvest in July. One respondent retained several buckets of the larger fish of her harvest for smoking. She gutted and slit the fish from tail to gills leaving the head intact; she also left some of the fish whole. She strung the fish through the gills in a row on pointed sticks, or hung them in bunches for about five days of smoking. She also jarred some of her harvest as sardines. Female hooligan were dried both with eggs intact, as well as cleaned of the roe. The eggs were eaten separately, primarily by elders. The dry fish were said to keep for months when thoroughly dried, although users commonly froze them. Dried hooligan were eaten "like candy" and smoked; jarred hooligan were eaten "like sardines."
Hooligan salting was done by layering fresh fish in five-gallon buckets. Rock salt or table salt was spread between the layers, and the buckets were sealed. Throughout winter months, salted fish were prepared for eating by rinsing several minutes and then boiling. Whole frozen hooligan were commonly boiled. . . .
Organization of Labor
In 1990 and 1991, the work involved in harvesting and processing hooligan was generally divided between men and women. With some exceptions, men fished and undertook the heavier tasks, such as brushing out the fishing and processing areas in the spring, hauling and shoveling the hooligan, cutting wood and building fires. Men also stirred the cooking hooligan with oars or long poles. Again with some exceptions, women directed the cooking process judging the time of each segment: when the water was ready to add hooligan, when the hooligan had been stirred enough, and when the oil was ready for skimming. Women directed adjustments to the fire, noting that the vat was too hot and boiling too hard, or that it was time to douse the fire completely. If men were helping an elderly woman at cooking, they would be listening and acting on her observations. Women also were in charge of storage and distribution of the oil. Men generally cleaned out the vat and refilled it for the next round. Small children were incorporated into the procedures by carrying and fetching for adults.
Historically, women reportedly sewed the web for nets from sinew or cotton threads, while men constructed dip net frames. Children performed simpler tasks such as collecting wood and rocks for heating, carrying buckets of water and hooligan, and cleaning buckets. Respondents reported that during the 1930s and 1940s, production groups were generally comprised of nuclear or slightly extended families. However, several production groups camped together and helped each other. Finished oil was produced and retained by each family group.
During the 1990 fishery, labor and equipment were shared among the family groups at 4-Mile. Individuals moved among the processing sites to help learn and visit. Family members and friends who were not directly involved in the fishery gathered for meals and visited at the camp during the cooking process. Fresh hooligan oil and other wild foods were eaten at this time.
During the 1990 and 1991 fisheries, each processing group drew members from several households. Ages of participating members ranged from the teens to the eighties; children under ten were also present Processing groups generally consistent of older adults from a core household, their adult children, their children's spouses and grandchildren.2
EXCHANGE AND DISTRIBUTION
Extensive local trade of hooligan and hooligan oil by Tlingits was documented by 19th century observers (Krause 1970 ; Niblack 1970 ; Porter 1983)3 Trade of dried hooligan or hooligan oil ranged "up and down the coast" primarily from the Nass Skeena, and Stikine Rivers, according to one observer in the late 19th century (Biblack 1970 ). Along the Northwestern Coast, local groups commonly specialized in producing particular products for trade with other groups. For example, from southern coastal groups, the Chilkat and Chilkoot obtained red cedar canoes, baskets, dentalium, mother of pearl, and shark's teeth; from inland Canada came skins, furs, sinew, and lichens for dyes (Krause 1970 ). The Chilkat and Chilkoot offered woven dance blankets, hooligan oil, and dried hooligan (Krause 1970 ; Niblack 1970).
Early British fur traders found that the Nass River was a central localization for coastal Native trade, prompting the Hudson Bay Company to build Fort Simpson there in 1831 (Amdt et al. 1987). Native trade networks were known at that time to extend into the interior along the major rivers including the Alsek, Chilkat, Chilkoot, Stikine, and Taku British fur traders commonly obtained furs from the Canadian interior through Tlingit intermediaries. The Chilkat and Chilkoot Tlingit maintained their own interior trade routes, trading with Canadian and interior Alaskan Athapaskans (Krause 1970; Oberg 1973; Swanton 1909). In 1880, the American Northwest Trading Company opened a post at Chilkoot, although the local Tlingit prevented them from trading directly with the interior peoples.
During the late 19th century, Chilkat and Chilkoot Tlingit took Hudson Bay blankets, cooking pits, guns, ammunition, matches, and other western items on expeditions to the Canadian interior over traditional trail systems, some of which, particularly one from the Nass to the Skeena River, became known to observers as "grease trails" because of the historic commerce in fish oils and seal oil (Collison 1941; de Laguna 1983; Kuarse 1970 ) reports that the Chilkat and Chilkoot Tlingit traded hooligan oil for seaweed from Tlingits on the coast which they then took to the interior to trade. Among the Inland Tlingit, Tagish, and Southern Tutchone, these goods were traded for furs, skins and lichens; the skins and lichens, the Chilkat Tlingit used as clothing and dye, and the furs to trade again to the American or British traders stationed on the coast.
It is important to note that the introduction of western goods did not halt the production and exchange of Native foods. Oberg (1973) documented that hooligan oil, dried hooligan, and cranberries preserved in hooligan oil remained among the coastal Tlingit trade items of the 1930s. At that time, trade of hooligan products brought in a wide range of food items such as "dried venison, seal oil, dried halibut, dried king salmon, dried herring, dried algae, clams, mussels, sea urchins, preserved herring spawn, and numerous other sea produces" to Chilkat and Chilkoot people (Oberg 1973). Nonfood items included "cedar bark for the Chilkat blanket, yew wood for bows, boxes, and batons, [and] water tight baskets of cedar bark" (Oberg 1973).
Haines and Klukwan hooligan harvesters reported that they exchanged hooligan products primarily for other food items, especially those unavailable in the Chilkat and Chilkoot area or those which were inaccessible to the harvester for various reasons. Respondents reported that virtually any wild food might be obtained for hooligan oil. Wild foods listed by respondents included black seaweed, chitons, clams, cockles, crab, herring eggs, salmonberries, bear, deer, moose, seal meat, seal oil, halibut, king salmon, sockeye salmon, and dried salmon. Hooligan was also exchanged for canned and packaged food. Smoked hooligan, fresh hooligan, hooligan oil, and smoked Dolly Varden, caught during the hooligan run, were traded. Most exchange of hooligan products was said to take place soon after processing. In addition to food, hooligan was exchanged for beads, beadwork, fur pelts, moose hide, cedar for carving, and handicrafts. Labor was also exchanged for hooligan oil, in the sense the "you'd let people help [with harvest and processing] if you knew they wanted some oil." Helpers always received some oil. Those harvesters who did not process oil themselves, but gave their catch to an oil processor, generally also received oil in return.
Magdanz (1988) reports that quantities of oil exchanged from the Chilkat area, per transaction, were relatively small, from a half-pint to a quart, and rarely a gallon at a time. Respondents in 1990 and 1991 reported that amounts produced and exchanged historically were larger than they are today. Oberg (1973) notes that the value of oil decreased during occasional years of very large runs on all major rivers, such that larger quantities of oil had to be given for smaller returns. Scarcity in other years raised the exchange value.
Contemporary distribution and exchange of hooligan oil, as well as fresh, frozen, and dried hooligan occurred in several ways. Many respondents said they distributed most of their harvest keeping only a small portion of their own consumption. All respondents said they distributed hooligan products among family members, and many also exchanged hooligan beyond what they considered immediate family. Contemporary producers stated that most of their hooligan products were distributed and bartered for other resources within a large kin group. A small portion of the yearly production was sold for cash. The following paragraphs classify types of distribution and exchange, and examine the social networks involved in each.
One type of exchange was distribution to kinsmen, that is, giving away hooligan within the extended family and to other close relatives often living elsewhere than Haines or Klukwan. Generally, the senior female of the producing group took charge of the distribution of the oil this way. Often grown children with their own households who had helped with the fishery received a larger quantity than those who did not help. Children or elder relatives living away from Haines or Klukwan received oil if they wanted it. This distribution was generally non-reciprocal. The gift of oil was essentially a provisioning of food to family members and represented a general commitment by the parent household to dependents and other relatives. Distribution occurred through sharing oil at meals in the core household, as well. For at least one family group, distribution of oil took place primarily in this way through sharing meals. In this case, members in several households came together for meals that included hooligan oil stored by one household.
A second type of exchange involved giving hooligan in return for other foods, but without negotiating values (that is, not bartering). This included both immediate exchanges, as well as delayed returns. For example, hooligan oil or smoked fish was given to relatives in other communities who offered their local products in return. The parties did not generally discuss the quantities involved, but accepted each offering as given because, as one respondent stated, generosity and good will were more important than equality. Data suggest that the social network operating in such exchanges included mostly a kin group beyond the local or immediate extended family; types of recipients named by respondents included clan and tribal "siblings," aunts and uncles, other relatives in the opposite moiety, and various relatives "way down the line." One important relationship included in this type of exchange and characterized by a give and take of rights and obligations was that of the ax kaani, or brother-in-law (less commonly sister-in-law). For a man to share with a brother-in-law is one of the social obligations inherent in the Tlingit system (Olson 1967). A respondent reported that generous amounts of hooligan oil were given when an ax kaani announced his hunger for it, and further noted that distribution of resources to, as well as other reciprocal obligations with in-laws was a dominant part of contemporary social life.
Another formalized aspect of this obligatory sharing involved donations of hooligan oil for various ceremonial occasions. Hooligan oil and smoked hooligan were set aside for potlatches, to be included among those foods offered as gifts to members of the opposite moiety. Quantities varied widely depending on availability.
A third type of exchange documented for the contemporary hooligan fishery involved barter when exchange values were negotiated by both parties. For some contemporary harvesters, hooligan oil brought a certain price in the form of other resources, goods, and occasionally services. Barter primarily took place with residents of other communities to obtain resources unavailable locally, and where the oil producer did not have kinship relationships to draw on. Relative values were negotiated based on, in part, the cost of production. Chilkat and Chilkoot processors valued their time and labor involved in producing hooligan oil. As one respondent said, they might "haggle for three days" while visiting another community. The social network participating in such exchange was broad including relatives, as well as friends and acquaintances. One respondent who harvested with his parents used his portion of the oil to barter for other wild food resources. In this case, he retained his mother-in-law in another village as his negotiator giving her some of the oil in exchange for her finder services.
Historical trading partnerships existed among Tlingit and inland Southern Tutchone, Tagish, and Inland Tlingit peoples (McClellan 1975). These relationships endured over several years involving inter-community clan mates operating within a broad range of social circumstances. Contemporary harvesters have also continued to barter hooligan oil with interior Canadian relatives and acquaintances.
During 1991 and 1992 research, respondents reported little or no sale of oil compared to amounts produced and used for other types of exchange. Hooligan oil was occasionally sold in pint or quart jars. Sale of fresh hooligan was relatively less common also; one example observed during the 1991 harvest season involved an elderly non-Native woman buying a gallon bag of fresh hooligan from a harvester for one dollar. However, hooligan oil was donated to Native or other local organizations for the purpose of raising money. For example, some residents have given oil to the Salvation Army, which collects the money earned from its sale as a donation. The donation of oil, in turn, constitutes a tithe for the giver. People also gave oil to Alaska Native Brotherhood and Sisterhood grand camps to sell at conventions as fundraisers.
All types of distribution and exchange served to parcel out hooligan products to people in a wider sphere of communities including residents of other Southeast communities, Anchorage, Seattle, and other lower 48 cities, as well as Atlin, Champagne, Teslin, and Whitehorse in Canada. Fresh hooligan and oil were shipped by air, as well as carried when traveling. Harvesters' distant kinship connections extended to virtually every Native and larger community in Southeast, as well as the larger cities. Local Tlingit traveled extensively throughout Southeast and into Canada for dancing and other ceremonial activities, as well as Alaska Native Brotherhood and Sisterhood conventions. Respondents reported carrying along jars of hooligan oil to use as hospitality gifts should the need arise. Travel and participation in regional activities have been vehicles for exchange of food including hooligan products, both in community meals, as well as through gifts and barter exchanges. 1 This number (17) is only coincidentally the same number as appears in Table 1 for number of households (17) from Haines harvesting oil for production.
2 This is a common arrangement of those households for pooling labor and equipment, described for communities elsewhere in Alaska (Wolfe 1987). Subsistence production groups commonly include a mature core household of experienced household heads with an older pool of labor (teenagers and young adults) and complete equipment holdings; in addition, the group includes young households (children of the mature household and their families) with a smaller labor pool (perhaps young children) and incomplete equipment holdings, who contribute labor under the direction of the core household. The members of the group share the subsistence products.
3 In some legal contexts, the distinction between trade and barter is important. Customary trade in Section 803 of the Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act (ANILCA) though not defined, probably refers to exchanges for cash which are not large scale commercial enterprises. Barter is the exchange of resources for other resources or nonedible items other than cash. Ethnographic and historical sources commonly refer to exchanges between Euro-Americans and Natives, and between Native groups, as trade, irrespective of the items involved in the exchange. In the present discussion, I use the historical word trade for historic exchange patterns. For contemporary exchange, I use the word distribution to refer to the partitioning of resources within a family group, and barter or sell to refer to exchange for other goods or cash.